TVSquad

Ah. That revelation of yours just gave me chills. I wonder if the notebook she gave him DID already have his extensive notes in it ... that would be wild indeed!

Ral, what a great thought!

And I've thought and thought about it, trying to remember points from past shows, and thought some more...

...and I'm not prepared to make an assumption on the subject either way. Its just a damned interesting question!

One thing that bothers me. Faraday's mind doesn't seem quite right before going to the Island. Widmore tells him the Island will heal his mind. Faraday wasn't on the Island very long, and then seemingly spent years off the Island in Ann Arbor. Was his brief exposure enough to cure him? I guess Locke was miraculously healed just on waking up after the crash. But I wonder, if I reviewed the episodes from Faraday's first introduction to us, would I notice that he initially acted messed up and slowly got better, or would I notice nothing at all?

I don't know that I'd trust Daniel's scientific judgment or knowledge anymore. Seriously, if he was THAT wrong about relativistic physics -- c'mon, how do you forget variables ?! -- then how can you trust his nuclear physics ? And he just lays it out there that his mother was all wrong about their being back on the island, but offers no justification for it. That's just bogus character development -- writers' fault again.

I'm not even sure the pieces have been moved. I think they always happened that way. I think that the 815ers had to go back because that's how it always was. I don't think they changed anything. Charlotte said before she died that she saw Dan when she was a little girl - he hadn't done that yet. Dan said that although they were "in the past" they were still living their present.
I don't think there are actually any variables. I think Dan had a theory that there COULD be variables. I think anything Kate and Jack and everyone else does next week will only further the events that already happened in 1977 - even if they think they're trying to undo the events that happened in 1977.

So convoluted - I really doubt I just made any sense...

I thought the same thing - it was kind of stuff that maybe I had just taken for granted, and it was just seeing all these things play out that I knew. It was a good episode though. I also wonder if Faraday could be brought back to life in the Temple, as we see some of them going there next week.

No, you weren't the only one left wanting by this episode.

I had the exact opposite reaction from this show as Jonathan did. After listening to the Podcast I was set up for this to be a huge episode and in the end, it changed absolutely nothing. I dunno what Jonathan was smoking when he watched this, but I want some.

I'm with you. After I finished watching it, I had the thought that now the plotline is to make sure that none of the past 5 seasons of the show ever happened? That would be horrible if the series finale is Oceanic 815 landing safely in LA. Horrible.

The only thing we really learned was that Daniel Farday is Charles Widmore's son (something which a lot of people suspected). Speaking of Faraday, why the hell would he storm into the "Hostile" Other's camp brandishing a gun, and then threaten their leader? What was he thinking? He would have been just fine, like everyone else who walked into their camp, if he had done so with his hands up saying "I come in peace - not here to cause any problems please I just need to speak with Ellie - she's my mother!" But no, he comes in and threatens to kill Alpert? I'll shoot on three, one, two - bang. Dead Dan. Of course bang. Jeez.

I'm a little confused about the electromagnetic explosion. Perhaps someone can explain this to me. First of all, we've seen no indication that there was such an explosion back in 1977. Second of all, I don't see how an even bigger, radioactive thermonuclear explosion would change anything. As for the Swan, they already had the Hatch there (even put the serial number on it), so it seems they knew it would be buried underground. Right? At the same time I recall Radzinsky building a model of a geodesic dome. Was that what the Swan was supposed to look like - above ground? If so why was the big, heavy hatch door already there?

I was expecting Faraday to reveal secrets about the Island. We didn't get any of them. Not one new fact about the island.

Finally, why can't Ellie and the others save the shot Faraday the same way the saved the shot Ben Linus? Assuming they would want to, of course, but it seems Ellie believed him about being her son. Why can't Faraday be saved by the island and/or the powers of the Others? Okay he'll lose his innocence and never be the same, great. Whatever. Why not do it?

To bruce:

"Perhaps someone can explain this to me. First of all, we've seen no indication that there was such an explosion back in 1977."

- In the episode "Orientation", the orientation video Locke and Jack watched made reference to an "incident" that occured during the excavation for the Swan station. Afterwards, they repurposed the station to manage the energy being emitted from the site (supposedly the original function of the station was to be to study that energy).

"Second of all, I don't see how an even bigger, radioactive thermonuclear explosion would change anything."

- Faraday believed that the bomb detonation could negate whatever energy was being emitted from the site, thus undoing all the events that would lead to Oceanic 815 crashing on the island.

“I was expecting Faraday to reveal secrets about the Island. We didn't get any of them. Not one new fact about the island.”

- I’m not sure what secrets we should expect Faraday to have since he appeared to spend a great deal of the time following their arrival in the 1970’s off the island, but we still don’t entirely know what he has written in his book.

“Finally, why can't Ellie and the others save the shot Faraday the same way the saved the shot Ben Linus?”

- Why would they?

- Ben was someone Richard seemed to have prior investment in and when he brought him to the temple it was implied that he was doing something that Charles and Ellie (the apparent leaders of the Others in that time) wouldn’t approve of.

- Additionally, Ben was still alive when he was brought into the temple. In the last scene of this episode, it seemed like Faraday had died after his last words.

This show has moved from frustrating as hell to completely preposterous.

Responding mostly to Bruce and Sho:

"'I was expecting Faraday to reveal secrets about the Island. We didn't get any of them. Not one new fact about the island.'

- I’m not sure what secrets we should expect Faraday to have since he appeared to spend a great deal of the time following their arrival in the 1970’s off the island..."

Faraday seems to be the character who acts as if he has the greatest understanding of what's occuring on the island, and he's spent time in Ann Arbor doing research. He comes back and tells people all these absolutes (e.g. Jack shouldn't be there, he has to make sure Chang does what he's supposed to, people actually are variables that can change the past) without anything to support his statements (i.e. its ALL exposition with no substance) and THEN HE DIES a seemingly insignificant and unimportant death (he accomplishes nothing, reveals nothing). And everyone is up in arms.

It reminds me of BSG and the introduction of the Daniel character in that show. All coincidences aside, everybody expected that Daniel to play a major role, but the writers said they didn't expect everybody to go down a rabbit hole with that character. Well, without going into details, our response to the BSG was a giant collective "Duh!"

I feel like we're doing the something here, chasing Daniel Faraday down a rabbit whole the writers didn't want us to, but they should have realized that we wouldn't accept just glossing over the information this seemingly important character contained...

...unless, of course, they do reessurect him and he becomes Jacob...

FOR THE RECORD: This episode was far from brilliant; it was disconcerting, with not the best acting I've seen from some of these characters, and they way it unfolded seemed kind of forced and ultimately anticlimactic.

To Tom:

“Faraday seems to be the character who acts as if he has the greatest understanding of what's occuring on the island, and he's spent time in Ann Arbor doing research. He comes back and tells people all these absolutes (e.g. Jack shouldn't be there, he has to make sure Chang does what he's supposed to, people actually are variables that can change the past) without anything to support his statements (i.e. its ALL exposition with no substance)…”

- As far as we’ve seen, Faraday’s “knowledge” has been THEORIES in regards to the time-related phenomena occurring on the island based on what he’s studied in regards to physics (not in depth knowledge as to what the source of these phenomena are).

- The trigger for his revision of his earlier theories seemed to be the fact that Jack and the rest of the “returnees” showed up in the 1970’s. If I’m not mistaken, he cited a photo of Jack and the rest as his reason for returning back to the island from Ann Arbor in the first place. The full “support” for his revised theory was supposed to come from his plan to negate the energy from the Swan site, but he was killed before he could see that through.

“…and THEN HE DIES a seemingly insignificant and unimportant death (he accomplishes nothing, reveals nothing).”

- In terms of the overall plot, Faraday’s arrival and his comments helped to put doubts into the minds of some of the “returnees” (or at least Jack) that they should just continue to lay low in the 1970’s. At a guess, these events may help to trigger the previously mentioned “incident” or may help reunite those in the past with the present (or both). The events of the episode also help to put Faraday’s notebook into the hands of Jack, something which looks like it will have continued significance at least into the next episode.

- In terms of just the episode itself, it gave us further insight into Faraday, Ms. Hawking, and the relationship between her and Widmore (This is still a character drama you know!). It also added a level of tragic irony to the character Faraday in that, despite his knowledge and theories in regards to time and his revised efforts to change things, he found himself the victim of a circular chain of events that both begin and end with his death.

-Does anybody else think that Daniel Faraday already knew of the variables - from the time he knocked on Desmond door and told him to see his mother ? I think Daniel was lying and manipulating people, for a good reason of course, to get exactly what he wants to happen to happen, and we are about to see all of that unfold. So this episode, to me, was important.

So, he is trying to change the future through the people around him. And he's tried to change things before, when he told Charlotte not to come back to the island, yet she did. Why didnt he want Charlotte to return to the island, because he already knew that if she returned she would die. So he had to have been trying to stop this moment and other events from before. Hes done this all before. So until he stops certain events from happening they will stay on this sort of loop.

So Charlottes death represents his failure to solve this island loop problem, and that he must try another set of variables to change the events and solve the equation. So he tries something else. I think on this episode he even told her something different than he did the last time he saw young Charlotte in 1977 (thats why we didnt here what he said).

I also believe that Dan, isnt the biological child of either Eloise or Charles, because in 1977, Dan should have already been born, also Penny, but we dont see any kids amongst the others! So what happens? Dan goes off the island to visit himself, to tell himself, like he did Charlotte of what to or not to do in the future. Why else did he leave the island on the sub and then return three years later?

-So,Dan goes around planting seeds in everybody including him-young-self to change their actions and therefore the future. But he's also figured out he must die. Thats why he goes into the camp armed. He's not stupid.... watch the scene again, its all so calculated for him. He knows what he's doing and what he has to say (even to his mother) again for the results he wants acheived. Besides if his attempts fail, again, he'll know when his youngself grows up and see's the airplane at the bottom of the ocean in the future. Oh by the way, you think he's crying because he cant remember and its all sad. He's crying because again the plane represents the fact that his early 1977 attempts failed once again and he must try another variable. its all in his book.

-Why did he tell them "what happened happened" nothing can be changed and then tells them he was basically wrong in this episode? He cant have everybody trying to change the variables. He must have total control of what needs to be changed inorder to change it to get the results he wants. Thats exactly why he told Sawyer not to even bother knocking on the hatch because he wont change anything, but goes right ahead and doesnt it any way...he needs to be in control of his variables.

-Oh by the way, his act of memory loss is his way of playing Hamlet, "playing the fool to catch the wise". I dont think he lost his memory at all, its his way of watching his parents and see the actons they will take to get him back on the island.



So for Dan its groundhog day (refering to the movie) he has to do it over and over until he gets it right.

So in my humble opinion, Dans a scientist who has figured out what or who the variables are/were long before, but now he has to find out the set of actions he and others must take to get the proper results in the future. So i think we cant write him off as a failed character in the Lost plot. Theres so much still missing.

Of course i could be worng, and all this could be just as confusing as the show but i rather have the faith that Dan is the key to stopping these series of events from ever happening, and we are watching is final attempt as it unfolds and eventually succeed.

I'm not going to post a spoiler here, but the pre-island ties are apparently going to be addressed to some extent in the season finale.

"I'm interested to learn how the main characters are tied to the island BEFORE they ever got on 815. For example, the numbers tied Hurley to the island before he ever got on the plane - there has to be a reason for that right?"

Just a thought--from the perspective of a 3rd Party Observer, Hurley heard the numbers for the first time in 1977. Of course, from Hurley's perspective, he's heard it many times before, both before and after the crash of flight 815. Therefore, Hurley was tied to the island long before 2004 when the plane crashed--He had been there already in 1977 (from an observer's point of view)!

Perhaps the fact that Hurley in 1977 heard the numbers echoed in a sort of "God Particle" kind of sense with Hurley in the 21st century.