TVSquad

I have to say that given the fact that you you stated your background, I understand what you think and where your coming from. However, you are very wrong about a few things and as poetic as it may sound due to your statement about disgust towards ignorant people, but its because YOUR ignorance. Like I said I know where you are coming from, and in that context I agree with you.

Being gay isn't as rosy as you think. I am gay and from a small town in Indiana. The overwhelming majority of the US (the world for that matter) is not as open minded as you claim. I had a hell of a time growing up there, and faced a lot of physical and verbal abuse. Still do. I've been hated on a lot.

Being gay is still against the law in a lot of countries and even punishable by death. The most noteworthy and reported on are Egypt and Iran (in case you wanted to look it up).

A gay student just got granted political asylum in England b/c he would have been executed if he went home (with in the past week). In the US we can still not get married (now with the exception of CA which will most likely get slapped down by the Feds like San Fran. and Vermont did). In equal opportunity legislation gay's aren't granted that right. If you are gay and work for the federal government you can be fired for it.

I am not a gay activist or anything. It just seems like you try to be socially aware, yet still ignorant regarding this issue. I'm trying to cite examples and stuff so you can look it up if you feel inclined.

I'm 25 and have lived in IN, Chicago, Miami, LA, and Indianapolis. In an Urban setting it may seem like people look up to us but they don't. What you are confusing with that for the most part is envy. We are usually different b/c our culture isn't so vanilla and usually have higher disposable income (in cities), because for the most part we are professionals (in cities) and aren't married nor have kids (thanks to the oppressive right wing).

Most of my experience with suburbanites is because they usually try to compensate with their racism, sexism, sexual behavior (don't ever say preference), etc by being friends with minorities. Again these examples are generalizations. I've been the token gay friend a lot, and usually always introduced as gay by these people. It becomes clear pretty quickly who is interested in you for who you are and who is trying to up their tolerance projection. Then there are people who see you as a novelty to play with.

In those same environments you get negative attention and extremely negative attention as well. For example other minorities typically hate on gay people hard core. Which is why double minorities (black and gay, or asian and gay) are usually ostracized from their community in the collective. They are usually in the closet longer as well (see Oprah's 'On the Down low' episode). Just like racism the older people are the less accepting they are towards gays.

A good example the view by the US is Film/TV. Gay representation is typically limited to comedic relief or a side kick. An example is Will & Grace. The original prospect for the Will character was deemed too gay for the lead, and now is one of the biggest actors in England. Queer Eye is a novelty show. The one main movie we have had in a serious script was Brokeback. You've heard the thousands of jokes that reference that as a punch-line, and its ok to laugh at by our society. When in reality that response is truly disgusting.

I actually thought I could sum that all up in about 7 or 8 sentences, but I was clearly wrong. Unlike your train of thought, gay people are not free (even on paper).

The other thing I wanted to point out about your post is black people aren't the most discriminated race. It seems like that in New York maybe (I've only visited), but internationally thats definitely not the case.

I would think being Arabic would be worse. Actually I would think with the 9/11 blame that it would be worse for that group in NY even. I would even venture to say Jewish people have it worse.

NY has 20 million people so it seems like a good sample, but its too focused. There are 325 times that many people in the world, roughly. Actually most places white people are the minority.

Like I said I agree with you. My post was #38 on this thread, it may be different now. I do think this specific example of the actor charging racism is ludicrous though. Again, read my post if you want a thorough explanation.

My wish is for you to think globally and not locally. Otherwise you're going to live like the rest of Americans, ignorant isolationists.

Joseph

See, I'm not ignorant about it. And I never used the expression "race card" myself (go read all of the more than plenty posts I made on this thread).

I tried to point out that while I totally understand the problem and I would in no way say that I could ever understand how it really feels to be black in a white world, that he still should think about picking his battles.

Because every time someone like him, who is in the limelight and who gets judged by what he says, says that he thinks its about race, it really more shows how much it might be like that for him but it weakens the whole fight for equal rights.

I understand that it's about the small things for him at the moment but honestly for a white person who will NEVER EVER understand how it is it is therefor impossible to understand what the problem is. It's like us white people being blind and telling us "see, that's what I mean. I am blue and you folks don't understand how that feels like". Guess what: we can't. We never will. Because we can not be put in your shoes because we are blind.

But again, what is the real problem here? He thinks that black actors on the show were treated different and that's simply not the case. And saying that he _feels_ like that makes it more about him and his perception. He will never change the way he and other black people are treated by exclaiming "this feels off". And honestly there are more important instances of real flat out racism still around that should be addressed than this one. Really I think it totally weakens the position.

If you put his problem here next to Bill O'Reilly saying that he would've never thought that african americans could run a "real" restaurant it seems so totally ridiculous. It's like listening to what Joesph said about gay rights and then having a gay actor on a show bickering about the fact that gays on the show he got killed off of don't get their happy end.

What's the point there? So you feel treated badly. How could we ever change that? We can't. The only way would be if we were all born equal which will never happen. It's like that Babylon 5 episode where a race of totally equal people suddenly picked different colored sashes to be able to distinguish themselves from the other, "different" group of people, which were totally the same down to their DNA, with the only difference being the sashes.

So again - why not address problems like the police storming into a house and killing a black suspect with 50 bullets or how easy it is to get firearms so that people in the ghettos can kill each other.

I think that's racism at its core. Those are the real problems. Him bickering about losing his job for the second time on a show that fires people left and right all the time just weakens the whole point. It tires people to the point where they start thinking that if they just can't get it right then what's the point in even trying to treat others equally? Why try to be friendly if you still will always be accused of treating the other person differently? My point being: the most equal treatment of all other people on the planet would be treating people who you think are assholes like assholes no matter what their skin color. But if you actually treat a person who's of different color who you think is an asshole like an asshole he can call you a racist.

So basically I really think HP is acting like a little kid who doesn't know what he did to again be treated like this and then he returns to the first thing he can think about as an explanation. And the problem is: since we all now accepted that blacks are treated differently then you could argue that during the whole time on the show he was always treated differently. All the time. And even if he would've stayed on the show and would've gotten his happy ending with his on-screen son you could always say that, if it felt off, he got that ending because he was black. It would all be about race. You could never say it isn't.

Let me ask you one thing: which other character on the show left the show and came back? He even said it in the interview: he thinks he just came back because people wanted to see Michael suffer. So why the hell did he even pick up that contract when he knew that? Wasn't it even racist to cast him for another stint on the show in the first place? Others are dead on the show and will never return and he played right into the hands of those racist executive producers of the show who just made him come back for the white audience to see him getting no happy end.

Give me a break. Seriously. What's the point in saying that? It just seems bitter and bitchy and if he's so aware of being treated differently why even bother and work on the show at all? Why work with those racists? In the hope of being treated equal?

*sigh*

What the hell is an active television watcher , a channel surfer?

You just hate dumb people. Admit it.

I think people have progressed far enough to stop calling the differences between black and white racism.

I know I would see it completely different if I were black but then again what's the difference between black and white, woman and man, rich and poor? Would you call it "racist" that women are still paid less than men if they are working the same exact job? Is it "racist" that 2% of the population own 85% of the money?

I know there are racists out there. But there's a difference between genetically encoded behavior (fearing everything that is not like oneself) and the process of hating everything that is different than oneself.

And honestly I think african americans are on the right way to be just as opressed as women in the US. You know, here in germany we have a population of 82 million, 5 million of those are from turkey. I live in a mixed environment in my hometown, where a lot of old people lived and after a while moslim turks moved in when those died instead of young germans - because they couldn't stand living next to "those old people". What would you call that then? "Ageism"?

I really don't understand why people are so keen on underlining that yes, we all hate each other and hammer it into our heads day in and day out. My point is simply that as long as it's been repeated over and over and over and especially because of unfounded stuff like this, it will never go away.

If you ask me the problem on Lost is not Michael getting killed off. I still think that even though there were people from Korea on that plane I miss a lot of other ethnicities. There's ONE guy from Britain who most fortunately speaks english (of course) and one guy from Iraq. Where are the Aussies on that plane? Or New Zealanders? Germans? Frenchmen? Overall more people from Europe are missing from the list of folks on board or better: characters who appear on the show.

The problem is: you can _always_ say it's racist and I'm sorry that I call that ridiculous.

And the reason why I comment so frequently on this thread is because I love the Show and I found the remarks Perinneau made after leaving the show the first time ridiculous to start with. He behaved like a princess and that's where the comparison with I. Washington stems from (at least Perinneau is not a homophobe).

The Washington story, to be honest, is a whole other deal. That was even more ridiculous with two interest-groups battling each other so I guess it was wrong from me to say it's similar here. It definitely isn't.

And again yes I couldn't understand the situation in the US and no I am not racist towards black people because germany is basically like Wisconsin - you have a hard time finding colored people on the streets. So if I were racist it would have to be towards turks, people from Poland, England (they have garrisons in my town) et cetera.

And honestly I really don't hate people from other ethnicities. I hate people who behave like assholes towards me and to be honest that's a group that usually is very diverse through all age groups and races. People are selfish. People are anti-social. And capitalism isn't helping with those problems either.

You're right. I do hate stupid people.

I considered not replying, but since you said you care about Lost, I figured I should show the respect of responding with what I care about as well, especially because I had the gall to call you out by name.

There are NO inherent differences between black or white, man or woman, rich and poor. Race is about as genetically significant as the colour of your hair. But people attach behaviours to skin colour and make them significant, also acting on the unacknowledged assumption that these differences in behaviour are natural. It's how EVERYONE operates on this planet. What we see and grow up with is what we think is natural until we start challenging status quos.

This insistence that we are different has MATERIAL effects. That is why people HAVE to point out racism, sexism, classism, homophobia when they see it. If we don't, the material changes will not occur. True equality will not be achieved unless we change our behaviours and assumptions.

If you are heterosexual, white, male, middle or upper-class and so on, it is less likely for you to recognize instances of homophobia, racism, sexism, and classism. Do you know why? Because we live in a world of quaint categories that are placed into a hierarchy, rich is privileged over poor, white skin over darker skin, heterosexuality over homosexuality, men over women. A part of that hierarchy means that those at the top don't get to see the negative effects because they are the ones benefiting from being at the top. It's not "racist" when you're pointing out pay inequity between men and women, you're pointing out sexism. Classism exists between the rich and poor. The same goes for your point about ageism. Elderly are not exactly valued in most industrial societies because they are seen as non-workers, so capitalism can't thrive on their labour).

What you're not realizing and what was frustrating me earlier (and prompted my comment) was that you're not seeing that racism is a system that operates on more than an individual level. Our institutions are built on racist ideologies and continue to work that way - white skin gets privilege in representation and material effects. One person can't change an institution. It's going to take a long time.

Thanks to globalization, there's now a global hierarchy of race, and it's become even more difficult to challenge racism because it does not manifest in a blatant way. Racism is not always a conscious action. Most people don't go around saying, "I hate black people" but it does not mean that they don't behave differently towards and around blacks. It's implicit and subtle, which makes it incredibly difficult to challenge. You may charge that you are not "a racist", even towards Turks, but you are a part of a racist system that will give you more material benefits than someone with a darker skin colour.

Ignoring it does not make it go away. Since when has doing NOTHING ever changed inequality? If we ignore inequalities, they will fester and continue infecting us. You say that people are keen on underlining that we hate each other, but it is not so simple. Minorities do not want to underline that they are being hated on. It is a dangerous move. A career breaker. A life breaker. To call out on racism, sexism, and so on as a member of the minority group is costly, especially when you're doing it within your industry. If minorities don't point out that there is racism, how is anyone supposed to know? A white person isn't going to wake up one day and realize "oh hey, I wonder why I hold my purse tighter when a black kid walks past me?"

I'm not even going to address any problems on Lost, but in my experience as a television watcher, North American television on the whole has a problem with minorities. They are consistently relegated to undeveloped roles or death. Of course, more white people are killed off on television all the time. But when you think about it in proportions, there are far more successful white actors in the industry than minority actors. The chances of a minority character being mishandled is incredibly high, and not always showcased through death. Their character development is skimped on, they aren't used enough, or they just aren't given interesting storylines so that viewers don't bat an eye.

The problem does not lie with just Lost. It's an industry problem. Media is not separate from our prejudices that we have grown up with. Writers, directors, producers, actors, they're all people too. People can harp on about being liberal or conservative or 'colour blind', but it does not undo the fact that we live in a world where there is a hierarchy of race, class, gender, sexuality, ability, and yes, age.

These hierarchies have MATERIAL effects in representation and ACCESS to resources. It's difficult for a minority actor to get a foot in the door, and once they do, their chances of being on a successful television show with decent characterization drops immensely. The solution is not to try and cram as many minorities into one show or to get representation of "everyone" (see: Heroes). The show would just end up with terrible characterization, and most likely the minority actors will portray negative stereotypes.

I can't even talk about Perrineau's relationship with the show in terms of what his contract was like or what have you. Obviously black people can be a$$holes too. Isaiah Washington was a massive one.

This doesn't mean he didn't make a valid comment about his characterization. There's a history of this type of characterization being RAMPANT. I concluded many years ago that it's dangerous to be a black male character on television (it's different for black women on TV).

It's also important to recognize that race and gender and sexuality and class are not separate from each other. One can be a middle-class black person, or a Chinese lesbian woman, or a disabled white male, or a working class white woman, so on and so on. They interact in different ways. You can have privilege in your race and still be disadvantaged in other ways, which is what happened with Isaiah Washington. He may be black, but he's also heterosexual. He probably experienced racism sometime in his work in television, but he still holds the privilege of being straight.

I want to say again that racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia are not always about outright hatred. So you don't hate anyone because of their ethnicity. Most people are like you. Not a lot of people hate. Every time your life gets a little bit easier, you're not going to notice it if it's because of your skin colour. But while you get something a little easier, someone with darker skin gets it a little harder. Because you can't see it does not mean there is no racism. We don't even NOTICE it because we want to be like you, Bash, and pretend it doesn't happen. We want to be good little liberals and pretend we are never implicated in anything. It's too dangerous to do that and we have to start recognizing it otherwise nothing will change.

well. If you really look at it, most of the people that run the entertainment business are white. People like to cast within their own race. Black producers, directors, etc. tend to have a predominately black cast. And a lot of times, the few white characters usually play very stereotypical roles. The people who make these shows and movies are, for the most part, white. So of course they automatically choose white actors. If there were more minority filmmakers, things might be different, and probably would. It takes more than one person to write the script and i'm sure that no harm was intended. I think it just kind of depends on who is actually making the movie.

We should just let Spike Lee do all the directing...He gets it

Nate, slavery was the problem in the past that has had a domino effect on the present. It is not so much about blaming others for our problems as it is about us understanding how we got to where we are today. Whether Perrineau is right or wrong he still has a right to voice what he feels is an injustice. The pathetic thing would be to feel like you have been wronged and say nothing about it.

Good point ;)
I really don't think race had anything to do with him getting let go. I realize that this is all a part of the storytelling, but it just seems like bad things happen to black males on the island. Now that it appears that waaallt is comming back to the island, that may not be the case.