TVSquad

We at TV Squad tend to think that we're blogging in a bubble; we post from homes and offices that are scattered around the country and truly don't expect many people to see what we write (at least I don't... just a little quirk of mine). So when not one, but two actors from a show you've covered comment on a post about that show, you sit up and take notice.

That's what happened last week, when both Christopher Gorham and Paula Marshall wrote comments on a post I wrote about their show, Out of Practice, getting shelved, along with fellow Monday at 9:30 exile Courting Alex. So, I reached out to both of them to respond and vent. Both answered, and Chris was the first that was willing to talk. We spoke by phone this past Friday.

In Out of Practice, the 31-year-old actor plays Benjamin Barnes, youngest son of a family of doctors. Ben's the only one who didn't finish medical school, instead becoming a marriage therapist. The ironic thing is, he's probably the sanest person in the Barnes family.

The show boasts a top-notch cast, which -- besides Marshall and Gorham -- also includes Henry Winkler, Stockard Channing, Ty Burrell, and Jennifer Tilly. It's executive producers are Chrisopher Lloyd and Joe Keenan, who were long-time producers on the classic sitcom Fraiser.

In this interview (after the jump), Chris discusses his frustrations with how his show is being treated, gushes on the writers and his castmates, and responds to people who say he and Marshall are "show killers".

[Photo: Lester Cohen/WireImage]

Joel Keller: We were a little surprised when we saw comments from you and Paula Marshall (who plays Regina) on our blog.  How did you guys find out about the posting?

Christopher Gorham: Well, Paula told me about it and, you know, I mean it's to a point now, especially as Courting Alex's numbers dropped in our time slot and now Old Christine's numbers have dropped three weeks in a row, that in the press we're still kind of thrown in with Courting Alex as a disappointment in that time slot.  But the reality is that we performed better than either of the other two shows that were there. So, you know, we've kind of taken it upon ourselves to start… educating people (laughs).  You know… because our show's in trouble and we really love it. More than that, we think it's really good; we just wanna give it whatever shot it can have to come back next season, we want to make sure it has that shot.

JK: The funny thing is my editor was kind of amazed that the two of you knew the numbers so well.  Especially you; your post was very detailed as to what the numbers were.

CG: Yeah, you'd be surprised at how obsessed we are with it. I mean, it's our job! You know, I have kids; it's not just a show to us, it's a paycheck. And to get something that actually has the potential to be a really solid show and to be around for a long time is pretty rare.  So we feel its something worth fighting for.

JK: And the weird thing is it's generally assumed that Old Christine is going to be renewed…

CG: Right!

JK: And as you said, you did the same numbers they did, and it's just funny that you're on the bubble and they're not just because they moved you to Wednesday.  I mean, did they promote your move to Wednesday or no?

CG: You know… very little, very little.  For instance, everyone knew that Amazing Race moved to Wednesday, right?

JK: Right.

CG: No one knew we moved to Wednesday.  I did see a commercial or two advertising us and Courting Alex moving to Wednesday, but they didn't spend a lot of money on (promoting) it. And, I don't know why it is; they have their reasons for the decisions, and they're looking out for their own interests, and I can't blame them for that. But I've got to look out for mine.

JK: So have you heard any word yet?  I mean, the up-fronts aren't coming till next month.

CG: We haven't heard anything and we won't hear anything until the up-fronts, you know, Mr. Moonves is notorious about being extraordinarily tight-lipped about everything. I mean, you look at the fact that no one knew about the creation of the CW until the day it was announced, and that's something that must have been in the works for months, there's not a chance that our fate's going to come out before then.  And really, it may not even be announced then, because like Old Christine, at last year's up-fronts, they didn't announce what the fate of that show was going to be. So there may be a situation where they don't announce it at the up-fronts either (chuckles); maybe in midseason or something for next year, I don't know what they're gonna do.

But I think there's a real argument to be made for our show. Our show is the only show in that timeslot to have growing numbers. We didn't get the big promotional push; we didn't get the billboards; Henry (Winkler, who plays Stuart) wasn't on Ellen, he didn't do Letterman, we didn't get any of the big talk shows. So we started lower and built up to really solid numbers, (as opposed to) shows that had a lot of pomp and circumstance and started high because of it but then dropped afterwards. I think there's a legitimate argument to be made.

Not to mention the quality of the show; we have eight episodes that haven't aired yet that are the best work we've done.

JK: That's the thing I've sensed; I watched your show fairly regularly, and out of the two shows that were exiled from that time slot, I liked your show better.  I said that your show was at least decent most of the time.  And it looked like the two episodes that aired on Wednesday -- it was weird that they had a Valentine's Day episode on and it was late march… but that's the network's fault, not yours…

CG: (chuckles) Yeah.

JK: But it seemed like the show was really starting to pick up a bit and become a very good show; the writing was coming together and so was the cast.  So I can see where you were going with that.  What did you see in the final eight shows that would lead you to believe that it was really going to go somewhere?

CG: It was just that; it just kept improving. Week after week, the shows got tightter, storylines got more specific to the characters, and we'd been working together, what, six months, by the time we finished, so you get a rapport with the cast members that really only comes with being together. 

And really the other thing, and is maybe more important than that, is that the audience needs time to get to know the characters. Because I would imagine that people who've been watching the show and they thought it was fine at the beginning, and they really thought it was getting really good towards the end of our run on Monday night and then the last two episodes on Wednesday, I'd imagine if they went back and looked at the earlier episodes that they'd like them better, simply because they knew these characters now, so they're going to be getting a lot of the jokes, a lot of the little looks and things that you wouldn't necessarily think were that funny unless you really knew the relationships between these two people.

JK: I'm just surprised, considering you have a lot of the same writers as Frasier, that they didn't promote it as such.  I mean, it's very much the same humor as Frasier, with wacky coincidences, and a lot of people trying to avoid people finding things out, and people going in and out of doors…

CG: Yeah, a lot of farce. You know what?  I think a misimpression that people had early on about our show, I think maybe because of the Frasier thing, that the show was kind of an old people's show, that it was going to skew old. And I think that when we premiered, I think the numbers kind of played out that way.

Then what had happened, by the time they took us off Mondays, we were doing a 4.8 in 18-to-49.  I mean, we had younger viewers; we had solid, really solid numbers with younger viewers. The problem was that they had already made the decision to move us and announced it three weeks before. So, you know, they announced their decision that they were going to move us to Wednesdays, then the next three weeks we had our three highest numbers of the year (chuckles). So we were kind of stuck; we proved three weeks too late, when we finally got the big numbers and the young demographic that we've been looking for.

JK: Didn't they announce you were going to move back to Mondays?

CG: No I don't think so, actually… I didn't see any announcement when we went off the air; basically we just disappeared.  Even on the CBS website, it still said "Mondays at 9:30" two weeks before we were to start on Wednesdays. We just vanished. And what happened was that there was no announcement, there was no… no one knew what had happened; I think a big chunk of our audience thought we had been pulled, you know?  And that's hard to do to a brand new show; especially one like ours that had really been growing by word of mouth.

JK: It's also got such a big cast, it's tough to focus in on the two characters that were going to break out, so these shows just take time, because you've got to get to know everybody, like you said…

CG: And really with comedies, they take time, it's different than with dramas.  Anything can be dramatic; people can find anything in a drama to connect to. Like sometimes you'd be surprised at the dramas that people connect to; it doesn't appeal to me but there's a huge chunk of society that loves it. But with a comedy, it's either funny or it's not, there's no… there's a really fine line, and I think when you get a really funny show it takes time for people to get… to get used to that, and get used to these people, and it gets funnier as it goes along.

JK: You were in Medical Investigation last year, and you were also in Jake 2.0, so those were kind of on the dramatic side, and this is the first sitcom you've done, right?

CG: This is my first sitcom. You know, Jake 2.0 had some funny things in it; I mean, I needed my sense of humor to do that part. Popular was my first series, that had funny things in it, but it was actually… I had to work really hard to get this part because I didn't have any real sitcom experience.  And Joe (Keenan) and Chris (Lloyd) I think were concerned about that, because it's a really high profile show, and they were really experienced writers, and their concern was is this the show that they really want somebody sharpening their comedic teeth on, you know?

JK: Even though you're the straight guy that everyone kind of revolves around.

CG: Yeah, and in fact I think that's what helped me. Because it gives me… I don't have to be the jokey-jokey guy (laughs). So there's more leeway for me to learn on the job, and I did; I got better week after week.

JK: I don't remember Stockard Channing (who plays Lydia) doing sitcoms either, I mean she did funny roles in movies -- like Rizzo in Grease -- but I don't remember her being on a sitcom either.

CG: Well, her stage experience is where that comes from.  She's done a ton of stage worth.  And the same with Ty Burrell (who plays Oliver), a lot of stage experience.  It was his first series altogether, and he has a lot of stage experience, he's done a lot of comedy on stage.  Very similar skills.

JK: Stockard was still doing some episodes of The West Wing while she did your show, right?  How'd she pull that off?

CG: No, she'd just go after work.  Because 3 days out of the week, we'd only work like five hours, so she'd just go after rehearsal.

JK: To me it's a good show… and I know there were articles floating around (laughs)… and I know Paula gets this all the time… we even posted something about an article that kind of started pegging you and a couple of other male actors with this label… but do you and Paula just get together and just say, "When are we going to get on a show that lasts more than a season?" I mean, is this something you just laugh about?  Because obviously the two of you are good enough o get hired over and over…

CG: That's the thing… It's interesting… It depends on your perspective. Because I see a posting like that, and (chuckles) first it pisses me off, because I'm like, "Are you kidding?" Like we as a cast member have anything to do with the fate of this show if we don't totally suck, you know? Because all the guys… I don't know the third guy was… it was me and Eric Balfour and somebody else, right?

JK: It was Steven Eckholdt...

CG: The thing is, first, yes of course, we'd love to be on a show that would go for more than a year.  I think that's why Paula and I especially are fighting so hard for this show, because we've been on a lot of shows and… you know… Frankly, I've been on… I think I've been on for the most part good shows that could have had a future, but this one especially, with these writers and this cast… I think with time it could really be a classic sitcom.

JK: And you'd think that CBS would see that and give you a chance… there's a pedigree there, with the Frasier writers there, you'd think they'd see that.  It boggles my mind that they don't give shows a chance anymore.  Do you notice that, that networks don't stay with shows as long as they used to?

CG: Oh yeah… That's just the reality of the world right now.  All the networks every year want to have a Lost and a Grey's Anatomy and a CSI.  You know, these shows that really come along every few years; you get one or two of these shows that is a breakout hit immediately and stays that way. I mean, look at Desperate Housewives; even that, it's starting to drop already, you know? (laughs) It just doesn't happen all the time.  But, you know, because of the networks, they're all owned by GE or whoever… so they need to turn a profit and they need to do it right now. And shows just aren't given the time that Raymond had or the time that Seinfeld had, for Christ's sake.  I mean it took years before it was a hit.

So, what I was going to say about doing all these shows, and that we'd love to be on one (that lasts)…. I'd have to say, speaking for myself, that I'm extraordinarily lucky. I haven't stopped working for seven years now, and yes it's been one show after another, but I've kept working. And on top of that I've done, what… five… six pilots, and all of them have been picked up; I've never done a pilot that's not been picked up and gone to series, and not only that but then gotten a back order of some length, be it three or six or the full nine. And that's extraordinary; that doesn't happen, you know? So I've been very lucky, I've been working consistently.

And the weird benefit of getting a show cancelled and me getting a new show the next year, is that you get a bigger raise when you do a new show as opposed to doing a second year, so…

JK: That's interesting.  I never knew that.

CG: Yeah… because in the second year, you typically get a 5 percent raise, but if you get a new show, you get a 10, maybe a 15 percent raise, so… (laughs)

JK: So there's some advantages; there's no stability, but at least you get more money.

CG: Exactly!

JK: That's the whole thing… there are cases where former "show killers" have gotten success, I mean look at the show that used to come before you (Two and a Half Men)… I mean -- why did his name just slip out of my mind…

CG: Jon Cryer!

JK: Yeah! He was in show after show that got cancelled, but were good, and now he's on a huge hit, so…

CG: I mean that's it. You know, there's so many things that go into the success of the show… it makes for a funny headline to tag someone a show killer, but there's no reality to it whatsoever, I mean there's really not.

JK: Right, and Paula's been on some fantastic shows, I mean Cupid was a good show, so it's not like it's one piece of junk sitcom after another.

CG: Exactly! And it's not like Paula's a bad actress and people keep casting her for who knows why and she stinks up the stage and the show gets cancelled because America hates her, you know? (laughs) This is not the case at all. There's too many things; there's the writing, there's how things are directed, there's how things are promoted.  There's a million things that are involved in that.

JK: And she's gotten enough of a reputation over the years; people know who she is, even though she's never had a successful series, so there's got to be something to be said for that, I'd imagine.

CG: I mean, you've seen her; she's beautiful, she's talented, she's funny, and she's great!  We want the second season of this fucking show so that we can sit up there in front of the press and wear our "I Am Not A Show Killer And Neither Am I" t-shirts (laughs).

JK: (laughs) By the way, what's it like working with Henry Winkler and Stockard Channing, people with all that experience?

CG: It's great… it's great. You know, it was very funny, auditioning for the show, it's like, "Wait a minute, so I'm going to be the son of The Fonz and Rizzo, two of the coolest characters of all time, and somehow someone thinks that I could come out of them?" (laughs) So it's pretty great.

JK: So when you heard it was two of the main guys from Frasier, did that perk your interest?

CG: Yeah, I saw the script before Henry or Stockard were attached, and it was just great; it was the best sitcom script that I had ever read. And I mean, I hadn't read a lot (of sitcom scripts), but I've read a lot of scripts, and you could tell that these guys were just really talented.

Unfortunately, they had to take probably four minutes of jokes out of the pilot because it was too long. And so you ended up with mostly exposition, so the pilot wasn't terribly funny.  But the original script was, and it sold itself.  You could tell these guys were incredibly talented, and when you found out what their pedigree was, it made sense.

JK: Oh, you didn't know what their pedigree was before they saw the script?

CG: No.

JK: Because as a TV fan, I know those guys from Frasier because I had been watching it for so many years.  So when I heard they were making this, I knew it would be good.

CG: Yeah, and Kelsey (Grammer) is directing, so…

JK: How is he as a director?

CG: He's really smart, and he is… trying to think of the perfect description… he's incredibly specific, which is great as a director. He knows exactly what he wants, and he has amazing instincts.  He knows the sitcom inside and out; I mean he just he knows it like the back of his hand. So he's incredibly helpful that way, especially for someone like me who is inexperienced in it, in really nailing down… just simple things like, "You know what? Turn your head after that line." And then you do and it's like, "Oh yeah, it's funnier," you know? (laughs)

JK: So if the show comes back…. What will be in the final eight episodes?  Can you give us a preview?

CG: (Thinks for a second…)  Oh yeah, so in one episode Crystal (Jennifer Tilly) and Stewart are having relationship troubles, and Crystal ends up coming to work for Ben… oh, Naomi comes back… So we get to meet Naomi and that storyline wraps up.

JK: Ben's ex-wife, right? Because that was actually a funny thing, that we never got to see her.

CG: And it was funny because that episode was the seventh episode that we shot, but because it was a different kind of episode of our show, because everything is focused on Ben on Naomi, where usually there's a couple of storylines that are all kind of tied together.  So this is one of those sweet-funny episodes as opposed to funny-sweet, so they held it back.

(Thinks some more) The season finale is a really funny one… Oh! There's a running storyline where an old friend of the family, a guy named Jack Arborgast, comes back to the hospital, and he is played by James Naughton, and he's in a couple of episodes where he comes back.  And there's a jealousy thing going on, and Oliver and Regina convince Ben, or almost… throughout the episode they're teasing Ben that he's the love child of Lydia and Jack Arborgast… so that's very funny…

And then the season finale, Stewart has to go in for an operation, and so it's kind of this funny, touching episode where he's in the hospital but of course everything is chaos around him, and he's going to be operated by Arborgast, who he hates. Then Arborgast and Lydia get into a fight and break up, and he doesn't want to do the surgery, and the anesthesiologist is dating Oliver, and they break up right before the surgery, so Stewart's convinced he's gonna die… it's a really funny episode.

JK: Cool. I really hope we get to see it…

CG: (laughs) Yeah, I do too.  I wouldn't be surprised if they air the episodes after May sweeps.

JK: Would you be surprised if they pick you up for midseason?

CG: You know, well…. I think if we're going to get picked up, it'll be for midseason.  That's really what my gut's telling me, that it'll be a midseason kind of a deal. Which is fine.  My only concern is that they get us on the air again and give people a chance to get to know this family, because when they had that chance it was catching on, the word was spreading.  We just need some consistency.

JK: Is it because CBS is in first place that they can do this?  Because I know that NBC, because it's doing so poorly it can take The Office and nurture it and move it to Thursday, where it's getting decent, not great ratings, but enough to renew it.

CG: Well, look at that. Our ratings are better than The Office and My Name is Earl.  And My Name is Earl is a hit, quote unqote, and The Office is getting renewed… so yeah, this is part of a by-product of CBS being so successful; but you know, we were a top 20 show when we went off the air! So you have to be doing well to take a top 20 show and throw it away.

JK: Well, did they see a drop-off from Two and a Half Men?  Because maybe they saw those ratings as a product of your lead-in.

CG: Well, we were seeing drop-off, but as you've seen that's how it goes with a brand new show coming in.  I mean Two and a Half Men wasn't holding on to 95 percent of Raymond in it's first year either, you know. That's kind of a routine; it takes time for people to catch on to these things, because people viewing habits generally don't change overnight.

But also, our show… because the networks all own studios… Our show's a Paramount show, which means CBS owns it.  So the good part about it is they have an ownership interest in our show succeeding, so you'd think that would come into play if they decide to pick us up. Courting Alex, they don't own outright. So if it comes between the two of those, then maybe it works in our favor.

The bad side of that is, if they want to let us go, well, they own us, so they're not going to let us go to NBC who needs the sitcoms (laughs), so that's the downside of this whole situation.

JK: Is anyone one the show signed for any second option pilots or anything like that?

CG: No, and that to me also is a good sign, because a couple of things came up after they pulled us on Wednesdays; Paula, Ty and myself were all approached for shows, and the deals just ended up falling apart because nobody felt like it was a strong enough second position. You know, like basically once the deals got to the point where it gets up to the heads of the network and they start making calls over to CBS, CBS is telling them, "No we haven't decided," so….

JK: So they feel that if they sign you to a second option, there's a good chance it'll fall through…

CG: Exactly. And I have to feel that if Paula Marshall and Chris Gorham are not doing a pilot that has to mean something, because we're always doing a pilot.

JK: Thanks for talking to me, Chris.  If Paula wants to talk she's welcome to… I know she was mulling it over….

CG: If you could just put on there that we'd really appreciate anybody who likes the show, please write to CBS, do that USA Today poll (Note: that poll will come out next month, called Save Our Shows), whatever; any way that they can kind of get the word out that they would support us coming back. It does matter, whether it's going to, you know, at the end of the day, make them pick up the show, I don't know. But it matters.