TVSquad

I agree that there's another shoe to drop regarding the leak. I flash back a few episodes to a reporter telling her that he was headed to jail. CJ's grimace looked, to me, like the pain of guilt.

No, the writing is not the same as Sorkin's. It is, however, more realistic. So the question is, I guess, should The West Wing be dramatic or realistic? Or, is it why can't we have both?

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Toby TOTALLY took the bullet for CJ! It's what WASN'T said right after he "confessed" that was writing--and acting--genious. "I'm the only other person who could possibly take the fall for this, and I will because you are more important to this administration than you are. But, to give creedence to the notion of Plausible Deniability, we cannot now, nor ever, actually talk about this. It will simply have to be understood." One never knows where the microphones are and if they're on. The only other person who knows the truth is the reporter.

CJ is VISIBLY racked with GUILT over Toby's action. She knows it's the Right Thing to be doing, but he has committed career suicude on HER behalf. She will not sleep well...if at all...for many, many nights, methinks.

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If you think Toby is covering up for someone, go watch "17 People" from Season Two. Toby is the character who places truth and idealism over realism and political considerations. Toby is the "fight the symbol" guy, the guy who believes in fighting the for the lost cause, the truth at all costs. Other characters might take the fall to protect the administration--never, ever Toby.

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Don't you think it is time for some "sparks" to happen between Donna and Josh?

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I'm surprised more of you aren't focusing on the obvious point of the whole episode: the producers launched a cruise missile targeted squarely at Karl Rove's forehead. We just watched the (NBC version of the) White House Communications Director admit to leaking classified information to the New York Times. We also saw the "President" reacting firmly and swiftly.

Every line in the "President"'s TV address about the importance of national secrets also apply to the current situation in Washington.

That the producers are trying to make the current administration look bad in comparison to their fictional one couldn't be more hit by a two-by-four obvious.

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Does anybody want to see this from Toby's side? He saved the lives of those astronauts when nobody else could or would do anything. He went for the human element, not political expediency. I would have expected CJ, least of all, to understand that. This is the same woman who broke down in tears when debating the morality of doing nothing to help the women who were being tortured in Qumar with Nancy McNally.

The part that made me laugh out loud, though, was the pure look of disbelief on Kate's face when Mr. Frost asked her out. After all that he put her though, he had the gall to ask her out for coffee? Priceless moment.

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Could it be that perhaps Toby is taking a bullet? Maybe for CJ?

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Great commentary on the continuing destruction of what used to be a brilliant show. Your point about the writing ties in with the other basic issue--namely, the executive producer, John Wells, who took over from Sorkin, also runs ER. There, the ER itself is the star. Wells seems to think the building is the star of The West Wing, and it isn't and never has been. And all they needed to do was let the current stars play out the season, so to speak, while having Josh leave to run the campaign. Instead, we get cheap melodrama.

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Great commentary on the continuing destruction of what used to be a brilliant show. Your point about the writing ties in with the other basic issue--namely, the executive producer, John Wells, who took over from Sorkin, also runs ER. There, the ER itself is the star. Wells seems to think the building is the star of The West Wing, and it isn't and never has been. And all they needed to do was let the current stars play out the season, so to speak, while having Josh leave to run the campaign. Instead, we get cheap melodrama.

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I'm so dissapointed with what John Wells is doing with my favorite character, on what was once my favorite show. Its not like some other show became my favorite- I only watch one hour of TV- the West Wing. Its getting to the point where I'd rather not spoil my sweet memories of what this show used to be, and turn off the channel.

Does anyone know what happened to Aaron Sorkin? Is he doing another project? One that doesn't involve "cheap melodrama" HACKS like Wells&co. on the west wing of today? (okay i dont know the other two exec. producers, but that's kinda my point!)

Next week has potential to be amazing- a lot of things I care about on the show are up in the air. I'm going to try to look past the cheap gimmick of a live debate to see what Wells does to atone to "his" fan base.

) =

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I was so frustrated at the end of this episode. I just had to express it and find out if I was the only one that was disappointed. Thankfully I found this. I really felt that I had just wasted 45 mins. of my life. It as if they had taken a 7 min segment and decided to make a whole show out of it. Next show could be about CJ's visit to the dentist.

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So Richard Schiff is never coming back.

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Sorkin & Schlamme just got their new series picked up by NBC. It's behind-the-scenes on an SNL-style show. Details here: http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/cl-et-sorkin17oct17,0,2173195.story?coll=ny-entertainment-headlines

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I think there are two things to consider with this episode. First, each of the the West Wing characters, especially C.J. and the President, are dealing with the shock and grief over what Toby says he has done. In a world where people do not scream and yell, this would be met with silence. Second, and while I have no evidence for this, I am not sure that Toby is telling the truth. Remember that in the first episode of the season Toby is a part of the the Bartlett library dedication and says that he has been in Colombia. If he was the leaker, he would be in jail, not on friendly terms with his former associates.

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Did it annoy anyone else that POTUS and FLOTUS did not seem happy at all that their daughter was having a baby?

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Yes, Toby has always acted morally superior. Think about the time when he acted like Bartlet's psychologist and all the other fights they'd get in. Not to mention he acted morally superior when he leaked it: I know what's best for the country, so I'm going to leak this before you even have the chance. I thought it was a Toby-esque thing to do.

They'll be happy about the baby later. The first thing they thought was "They conceived a baby out of wedlock," since they are both politicians and Catholics.

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I'm enjoying this season and haven't quite seen its demise yet. The show has changed, no doubt, but it's still some of the best TV out there. Last night's episode was dramatic, but not melodramatic in my opinion. I'm saddened by Toby's departure, but can't believe this is it. The camera angles, the dark lighting, the mood all said there's something else going on. CJ isn't being candid, and I think she's another leak. Wouldn't the NYT reporter have to confirm with another source anything Toby might have leaked? Bartlett was cruel to Toby, but I would think under the circumstances this would be realistic. Maybe the fact that the show is mirroring what is happening in the real White House at this moment (and some of what happened on the campaign trail last year) has turned the audience off? I love it.

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I don't watch the show but, while channel surfing, just happened upon it when Toby was getting fired. There seems to be a consensus here that the writing has gone downhill...and badly so. Perhaps it's indicative that the writing is now dominated by left-wing Hollywood zealots (like Lawrence O'Donnell?) as the theme of this episode and the "Plamegate" controversy are obvious. Perhaps ardent propaganda doesn't necessarily translate into captivating TV drama when you can read the script everyday in your normal news sources.

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OH Ozzie, Ozzie... people were having a very nice conversation here about writing and substance, and you had to come along and drop the left-wing Hollywood thing. When will you and your thick skulled conservative friends understand that Network TV and a large chunk of Hollywood is now run by extremely conservative right-wing corporations. Please stop it with this silly arguments. The show dropped in quality because it changed artistic leadership, not because it got liberal... in fact Sorkin was a lot more liberal than Wells. Maybe that is what is wrong with the show now... not enough left-wing writing. : )

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